QED Manifesto - Notes and Comments

Message-id: <199305032105.AA20489@aerospace.aero.org>
Date: Mon, 3 May 93 14:04:58 PDT
From: cal@aero.org
To: qed@mcs.anl.gov
Subject: QED Manifesto - Notes and Comments
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	file qed930503.txt
	first notes on QED discussion

I have read the QED Manifesto and the subsequent discussion with much interest
and not a little horror.

I believe that the project is fundamentally misguided, and that even if one
ignores that, the designs under discussion will be inadequate to the task.

Ok, so enough for the flames; now for some serious comment.  First on the
manifesto itself, then on some of the subsequent commentary.

If I'm being too sarcastic at times, then I apologize, but it just irritates
me to see that naivete about "the way to do mathematics".  I have no doubt
that each of you who write "_the_ way math is (or should be) being done" is
right about _a_ way it is being done.  My complaint is just that none of you
take into account the enormously different styles of methods that are in use.
None of those methods is exclusive, and mathematics is being done in an
amazingly large variety of ways, sometimes by the very same person.  It is
this variation of methods that QED must support in order to gain acceptance
from the mathematical community.

As to my use of "misguided", well, I think QED is trying to formalize an
inherently non-formalizable process; that of discovering new mathematics (even
though that is expressly not a goal of QED, I believe that it should be, since
otherwise QED is a pointless exercise).  The real world is out there to foil
any attempt at completely severing mathematics from external influences
(though that is exactly what formalization is).  The attempt is still
worthwhile, but we should all keep in mind the quote M.Thayer used: "God has
more disk space than we do", which I take to mean only that reality seems to
be much more diverse than any of our formal mechanisms can handle adequately.

The strong emotional reaction we see here results from the excessive reliance
of some people, myself included, on a notion of "truth" to provide life's
certainties, and on mathematics to provide that notion of truth.  This is not
a technical issue, but it pervades the discussion of QED.

Comments on Manifesto


I agree with some of the situation description in the first reason, about the
increase of mathematical knowledge.  Of course, most of that increase is in
areas known to be "irrelevancies", with a very small theorem-to-definition
ratio, and I am not convinced that even publishing those results in the usual
way is useful.  By the way, I can't quite decide why the theorem-to-definition
ratio matters to me.  It is something about getting out more than you put in.
It seems that good mathematics should have a high ratio (yes, I know that the
ratio is not meaningfully well-defined, but there is some notion there that is

Problem solving and theorem proving are only one of the motivations for doing
mathematics.  Another is less goal-directed, a kind of exploration of new (or
old) mathematical territory.  The criteria for success here are harder to
elaborate, because the time scale is different (e.g., Levi-Civita's
development of tensors preceded their use in relativity; there are many other

Despite the phrase "knowledge and techniques" in the first sentence of the
manifesto, all of the subsequent discussion of the mathematics itself is about
theorems and proving theorems.  The methods of a mathematical theory are often
more important than the theorems anyway, since it is often only the methods
that generalize across theories.

I believe that the expected (rightly, I think) enormous sizes of "internal
documentation of ... " and "specifications of ..." represent failures of
imagination and abstraction, and simply follow from the amount of thought and
money typically allowed for their construction.  Also, I think they partly
reflect the inadequacy of the available software tools to support computation
with abstractions.

I wholly support the third motivation, for education, and hope that there is
LOTS more study of the kinds of tools that must be available in such a system;
no present system comes close, regardless of subject matter.  Some of my own
research is relevant here, in the area of software support of complex systems
[Landauer-Bellman92], [Landauer-Bellman93].

The fourth motivation is, in my mind, neither beautiful nor compelling.  It is
simply wrong-headed.

In the history of mathematics, we have seen many instances when the very
foundations of certain areas of mathematics have changed (calculus by
infinitesimals to calculus by epsilons and deltas, Riemann's "hypotheses" vs.
Kronecker(?)'s "facts" that underly the foundations of Geometry; Cantor's
notion of infinite vs. "dass ist nicht Mathematik; dass ist Theologie"; the
axiomatic method itself; some less well-known examples are Aczel's set theory
with an anti-foundation axiom [Aczel88]; Chaitin's complexity theory
[Chaitin93] and Barwise's situation theory [Barwise89] are possibly other
examples), sometimes when new application areas (such as natural language) are
treated.  I believe that mathematics will need further changes to treat
computing adequately (we are still stuck with the mathematics that derives
from our understanding of compilation; there are harder problems we have
ignored), and to treat the full complexity of biological systems at all.

In a sense, we have started in the middle somewhere, as in physics, with
concepts and methods that we can comprehend in some direct way.  Then we built
structures on top of that, and we also built structures underneath that make
us feel like the others are well supported.  Unlike physics, however, our
criterion for success in mathematics is not just the application of methods to
"the real world"; it is also (or perhaps predominantly) in applications of
those methods to other parts of mathematics.  Methods that unify and simplify
several parts of mathematics at once are successful; group theory and category
theory are two well-known examples of that process, and another perhaps more
obscure one is the use of sheaves and then schemes to redo the basics of
algebraic geometry.

I think this foundational aspect is a key to the motivation for QED, and to
its expected failure.  We become uncomfortable when there is no foundation
(set of bottom elements, concrete objects, atoms, fundamental concepts, or
some other term that makes us think we understand these basic objects) from
which we can build the defined structures.  And yet we can reason with the
unfounded elements quite well, if not quite without trepidation.  What
mathematics has done in the past is to build a rigid structure (well, actually
several rigid structures) somewhere in the middle, with tentacles leading up
into the large and down into the small.  As long as we work in that structure,
we are comfortable, but when we get to the boundaries at either end, we have
difficulty.  As the manifesto says, in the Reply to Objection 7, "The QED
system will ... perhaps ... never [be used] in the discovery of ... deep
results."  This shows a recognition that the ends of the structure are
difficult.  It is true, though, that the foundational issues are the most
difficult.  For instance, all of the examples above are difficulties at the
bottom of this structure.

Now QED wants to build such a structure, which is perfectly reasonable.  But
also the manifesto describes it as though that structure will be
foundationally complete (yes, this is an undefined term, but it means that
there is no further foundation needed), and I think that attitude is wrong.  I
believe mathematics will follow the same history as physics, namely, that
there is no ultimate foundation, only plateaus on which we seem to rest for a
while, until we examine them closely enough.  This is why I expect QED, as it
is described in the manifesto, to be wishful thinking.  I think the idea could
be salvaged by changing the expressed attitude about mathematical foundations,
but that is always difficult.

The fifth motivation is too militaristic for me.  If the thought police
return, they will be the ones who have QED, not us.  Moreover, it is
well-known that what constitutes a proof is at least partly a social
phenomenon (witness Hilbert's use of a form of Mathematical Induction that
does not use successive integers to prove the Prime Ideal Theorem; that style
of inference was new to him and not well-accepted for a while; witness also
Haken and Appelt's proof of the 4-color theorem, which is still not completely
accepted), and that flexibility must be maintained for mathematics to progress.

Just to throw another grenade into the discussion, I also think that
self-reference is important.  We seem to find potentially infinite towers on
well-founded bases (e.g., the set of non-negative integers) much more
congenial than infinitely descending towers, and when there is self-reference,
we get even more worried.

The tremendous success of the language / meta-language separation in providing
foundational coherence in mathematics and logic has blinded most of its users
to its cost in expressiveness.  Instead of working to find logics that allow
study of self-reference, we simply eliminated it altogether, because it could
(and did) cause trouble, as illustrated by various set-theoretic paradoxes
[Barwise-Etchemendy87].  Self-reference has always been somewhat suspect in
mathematics and in logic because of these paradoxes.  The only approach I have
seen that even addresses this issue is Barwise's situation theory, which is
being developed in conjunction with new logics of self-reference [Barwise89],
and in fact, a new set theory that supports them [Aczel88] [Barwise-Moss91].
These logics arose from the study of natural language, with its very definite
non-separation of the subject of discourse from the discourse itself (the
chief culprits here are words like ``this'', ``that'', and ``the other
thing'').  This new kind of logic both facilitates reasoning with
self-reference and also helps resolve some of the sticky paradoxes of set

Replies to Objections

It is clear that there are many similar logics in use now.  Many people
naively assume the pseudo-"mathematical" ideal of having one base system into
which everything can be converted and compared.  I claim first that it can't
be done, and second that it shouldn't be done.  First, any formal model is
limiting by definition, so choosing one such model automatically and
irrevocably precludes studying certain things.  Second, the well-known
failures of mathematical methods in computing and in biological systems imply
that new and different mathematics are needed.  These may require new
inferential mechanisms as well.  It is much more important to standardize on
the allowed variability in a system than to standardize on one kind of
expression.  Also, if the goal is truly _all_ of mathematics, then all the
different kinds of limited inference mechanisms must be used also, so that one
can easily determine, given a collection of allowed inference mechanisms, what
are and are not theorems and other derived methods.  Note also that there will
be new mathematics required in the construction and analysis of such a large
system, so that certain kinds of self-reference will be necessary (in so far
as QED is a formal system, it must be representable within QED's logics; some
careful form of computational reflection will be essential).

I completely agree with the Reply to Objection 2, but would recommend that
results and notations and methods and algorithms also have an associated
pedigree, to keep track of source information.  We have found that to be an
invaluable aid to validating the behavior and internal information in a
complex software system.  Moreover, it might help reduce the exponentially
growing volume of published mathematics to allow "publication" into QED rather
than paper.

The Reply to Objection 3 does not address the issue raised there at all.  I
think that Objection 3 may be correct (though not relevant, since most of the
mathematics that has been published is not relevant as I mentioned above), and
the reply also both correct and irrelevant.  The issue is not that we should
do the easy stuff first, but rather how and by what means should the system be
"bootstrapped".  I was glad to see that notion mentioned in the discussion.

Objections 4 and 5 are specious.  Both are correct; both are irrelevant.
First, one should make a careful distinction between "computationally checked"
and "mechanically checked", and note that neither is possible, since we cannot
formally check the operation of the computers or other mechanisms; they are
objects of the "real world" and mathematics is not.  Nonetheless, QED may be
feasible; it seems worth the effort to find out.

The Reply to Objection 6 is ok as far as it goes, but I suggest that some
professional journals would eventually be interested because it would greatly
simplify the problem of relating a new piece of mathematics to the rest of the
field.  The repeated failure of technical reviewers to exhibit the requisite
breadth of knowledge is a hint that it is more and more to gain that breadth,
and not just because the subject is growing fast.

Objection 7 is exactly right, and should be carefully taken into account.  The
Reply to Objection 7 is naive, both from the notational point of view, and
from the computational point of view.  The notion that Tex "demonstrates that
it is no problem for computers to deal with any known mathematical notation"
is ludicrous; it only demonstrates that we can cause the marks to appear on
paper using Tex, not that there is any set of computational methods that can
be used to describe the relationships those marks are intended to denote, or
even to identify what context or conventions are to be used to interpret the

Mathematicians are amazingly productive in inventing new notations that
convert problems in one domain into problems in another.  One scenario for
this progression is that new notations are (1) first used as abbreviations in
terms of other base symbols, then (2) combinations of the accepted rules of
manipulation of the base symbols are gradually found useful or interesting for
manipulating those abbreviations, and finally (3) those manipulations of the
abbreviations become formalized into theories about safe manipulations of the
new notations.  It is my opinion that QED must use this same mechanism (and
many others, too) of incorporating new processes that manipulate objects in
one of several different ways, depending on how deep their abbreviation
definitions are.

For a simple example of this abbreviation process, consider the rational
numbers.  The expression 1/4 is not a number, it is a problem.  It is such a
familiar problem, though, that we know lots of manipulations that we can
safely do with it, most of which were derived from safe manipulations with
integers, which can in turn be derived from safe manipulations with sets (in
one definition of integers as sets that is used to prove Peano's axioms).  We
therefore think of 1/4 as a fundamental object, and treat it that way in most

The computational naivete lies in the thought that everything will be
translated into a common internal form (an implication which may not be
intended is that it be the same form, as implied by the root logic; simple
syntactic analyses and prettyprinting are, as the reply says, quite feasible).
It has been seen repeatedly in our studies of computational support for
complex systems that there is no one method, approach, notation, language or
even paradigm that can be adequate, so that multiplicities must be allowed
even at the lowest levels of processing [Landauer-Bellman92].

In fact, the last sentence of the reply is one of the horrifying things about
the entire proposal.  If QED is not intended to support the development of new
mathematics from the very first deep insights, then I think it will not be
used by anyone except clerks, and that few mathematicians will even notice it,
let alone support it.

Objection 8 is right also.  Any piece of code as large as QED must be is
inherently unreliable for many reasons, not the least of which are the
software and hardware base (compilers, operating systems, and processors).

The Reply to Objection 8 is also right.  However, it is not the human errors
in proofs that are in question; it is the programming errors in proof
discovery, construction, and verification that are the problem.  These errors
will be harder to discover, because humans are less familiar with the
peculiarities of computer programs than they are with the peculiarities of
human reasoning.  Still, improved accuracy is likely, after all the presently
accepted body of mathematics is entered and verified.

There are two other parts of the reply that are difficult for me.  I hope it
is clear that "expressing the full foundation of the QED system in a few pages
of mathematics" will require some new mathematics, since the expressiveness of
current mathematical systems of notation cannot handle the variability of
components that would be required for such a compact representation.

Lastly, "agreement by experts ... that the definitions are 'right' ... "
smacks of more cliquishness than I like.  In every subfield there are some
generally accepted definitions, and some alternative sets of definitions that
are all basically equivalent (sometimes that equivalence is the major result
of the theory).  One may usefully choose a preferred definition (for expository
purposes, for example), but the alternatives are as valid and also important
for exploring the relationships among the different concepts in the subfield.

I do think there are some real objections to the concept of QED as stated.  My
main non-technical concern is the social or political issue: who decides what
goes into QED?  Not every mathematician will play this game, no matter what
the rules are (mathematicians, indeed all humans, are just like that).  This
objection is related to Objection 7, and to my mind much more serious than the
trivialities of syntax.

Background Problems

"A second reason is that few researchers are interested in doing the hard work
of checking proofs".  I do not believe for a moment that anyone who thinks of
herself or himself as a research mathematician is going to spend any
significant time "checking proofs", especially according to rules that are not
common mathematical practice.  Even if the rules were commonly accepted, that
is clerk work, not for humans.  The result is that the researchers involved in
QED will primarily be computer folk who will concentrate on the software that
makes checking proofs easier (which is commendable), and then inevitably (I
believe that some of the discussion already exhibits this tendency) on
suitable restrictions on the mathematics to make producing the software easier
(which is deplorable).

1. Reliability.  This is also Objection 1.

2, 3, 4. Logic.  This is answered by the use of multiple logics and
appropriate interconnection theories.  The research necessary here is to
extend the work of [Nelson-Oppen] to more complicated theories with more
complicated interactions.

5. Syntax.  This is a design requirement, not a problem.  It is both
technically feasible (using cooperative grammars) and essential.

6. Human.  This is Objection 2 also.

7. Extensibility.  Why do these plateaus occur?  They also occur in
mathematical theory, and in most sciences also, and these endeavors are much
more complex than the scope of any of the theorem provers in question.  I
believe that the plateaus are evidence for our earlier claim that no formal
system can encompass all aspects of a real system.  In so far as the
correspondence between the formal system and the real system is close (that
is, the formal system is a good model of the real system), it will take time
to perform the analyses, discover the relationships in the model, and design
the experiments that define the boundaries of that correspondence.  That time
is part of the plateau, as is the time spent exploring the boundaries,
discovering new anomalous relationships, and inventing new models.  The
plateaus end in science and mathematics because humans are great at stepping
outside systems to look at them from different viewpoints; we do not know how
that is done.

8. Infrastructure.  QED will need tools that work with objects within the
system, not just with objects in the application domain.

9. Rigor.  This seems like Objection 2 also.

10. Standards.  The problem mentioned is the result of naive standardization
instead of explicit management of variability.  It should not matter what
syntax is used to express induction schemas, as long as the requisite
information is there.  Also, by the way, there are many different induction
schemas that interact in different ways with other inference rules, according
to the amount of information that is included with them.  It is essential for
the utility of QED to allow the full range of variability here, and to have
explicit models for the interactions.

11. User Interface.  Ease of use for whom?  I would be glad if proving a
theorem in QED were no harder than proving a theorem using pen and paper.
However, while there are long-standing traditions about many mathematical
objects and notations for them, there are few or no traditions of any kind for
notations that describe manipulations of expressions in those more common
notations.  There is a basic difference of feeling between doing something
(e.g., moving around in a mathematical space) and telling an idiot savant how
and where to move.  As a species, we have been moving around far longer than
we have been telling others how to move.  This difference between actions and
words for actions may be insurmountable.

Root Logic

Starting with a choice of root logic before we know what we are going to need
is self-defeating.  All of the discussion of a "root logic" is unproductive
until much more of the support infrastructure is in place.  Which logic is not
the first question; that is like deciding what programming language to use
before you know what the program is supposed to do.

The most important part of the description here is the last paragraph, but it
appears that its message is ignored elsewhere in the manifesto.


The first two planning steps are fairly interesting.  There is an almost
reasonable list of items to be considered for inclusion, but it is much too
superficial.  It only contains "object-like" elements, confuses the software
items with the "application domain" items, misses completely the notion of
methods and processes in both domains.  It is only superficially that the
importance of mathematical theory is in the theorems.  Actually, it is in the
methods, which are in one sense just like the theorems, except that they have
much more complicated parameter objects (which can include methods as well).
One hint of this difficulty is in the cases in which essentially the very same
proof can be used to prove two different theorems in two different parts of
mathematics; different objects, different axioms, and yet the properties of
those objects are sufficiently similar that the same proof can be used.

Other things missing are primarily software infrastructure items, such as the
integration agents that make interconnections between parts of the system (it
is clear, I hope, that this will be a very widely distributed system), the
registration agents that will maintain knowledge of certain information or
services (it is clear also, I hope, that this will be a very dynamic system),
the "middlemen" that will direct requests for information or services to
appropriate providers, and a host of other software support structures, such
as self-monitoring agents that watch for trouble in various parts of the
system.  My main point here on the software structure is simple: QED will need
more software infrastructure than you will believe at first, and perhaps more
than you will ever believe.

The third planning step is separable from all the others, and would be greatly
beneficial to a number of projects.

The fourth step is another sort of mire.  Many theorems have several different
statements, all somewhat related.  There should be a careful collection of
several versions of useful theorems, and their relationship should be
indicated.  Moreover, there are some expositions of mathematics in which
results are proven in different orders; one takes a known theorem as a
definition and proves a result otherwise treated as an axiom.  The inferential
structure of the subject can be traveled in many directions.  Sometimes these
different views of the foundations of a subject area are very helpful for
understanding, and this style of analysis should be available in QED.

Comments on Discussion

The discussion has mainly been in a few categories:
	choices of language, logic, implementation (db, ui)
	the effect of Bourbaki
	priorities of mathematical subjects
	little theories, and other information organizations
	existing theorem provers and information sharing
	existing logics and the question of which root logic to use

I will start with some common incorrect assumptions that I think occur in the
manifesto and in the comments.  Because of the length of this note already
(and I only thought I was making a _few_ comments!), I will save my comments
on the discussion for later.

Most discussants are missing the notion of context of statements in a formal
language (Beeson is an exception here).  Instead, most of the commenters are
trying to make the statements all self-contained, and that is only possible by
overly restricting the range of allowable interpretations.  Mathematical
notations depend on context for the interpretation of the symbols, both syntax
and semantics, and it seems to me that actually much more information is in
the context of an expression than is in the particular expression.

Digression: "lingua franca" is a great term; referring to one universal
language within another, though they were universal at different times and for
different purposes.

Most discussants are missing the notion of how much software infrastructure
will be needed in such a system (Boyer is an exception here).  Instead, most
of the commenters are concentrating on the superficial (as far as the
programming is concerned) questions of application domain structure, root
logic, and algorithms for processing the application domain objects.

Most discussants seem to be assuming (mistakenly in my view) that mathematics
is in the theorems, not the processes and relationships among concepts.  Until
those are handled explicitly and properly, QED will have little or nothing to
do with the practice of mathematics, despite its declared subject matter.

Most discussants are still assuming that rigor means everything is reducible
to the same level of detail in the foundations.  I do not think that is true.
Each object and each process will exist at many different levels of detail
simultaneously, and inferences at some levels will automatically convert to
inferences at other levels.  There is no reason to translate everything into a
single level.  Besides, I do not believe that will be possible.  In so far as
we can translate everything into one formal system, that formal system
explicitly limits what we can write and how we can process it, and I think
that historically, mathematics has shown a great inability to be so


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	Jon Barwise,
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	Jon Barwise, John Etchemendy,
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	Jon Barwise, Larry Moss,
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	Gregory Chaitin,
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